August 25, 2005
Italians Treating Wounded Terrorists
It's not that I'm against doctors treating wounded terrorists--not to do so would be a violation of their oath--it's just that after you treat the wounded terrorist you're supposed to turn them in. You will recall
our extensive coverage on the two Italians who worked for A Bridge to Baghdad held hostage in Iraq. At least three groups had claimed to have been involved in the kidnapping of Simona Pari and Simona Torretta, one of which had
threatened to behead the pair.
AP
Italy's Red Cross treated four Iraqi insurgents and hid them from U.S. forces in exchange for the freedom of two Italian aid workers kidnapped last year in Baghdad, an official said in an interview published Thursday.
Maurizio Scelli, the outgoing chief of the Italian Red Cross, told La Stampa newspaper that he kept the deal secret from U.S. officials, complying with "a nonnegotiable condition" imposed by Iraqi mediators who helped him secure the release of Simona Pari and Simona Torretta, who were abducted on Sept. 7 and freed Sept. 28.
"The mediators asked us to save the lives of four alleged terrorists wanted by the Americans who were wounded in combat," Scelli was quoted as saying. "We hid them and brought them to Red Cross doctors, who operated on them."
They took the wounded insurgents to a Baghdad hospital in a jeep and in an ambulance, smuggling them through two U.S. checkpoints by hiding them under blankets and boxes of medicine, Scelli reportedly said.
Via
Captain Ed who notes rightly that
Berlusconi owes the United States an apology and the Italian Red Cross should immediately get decertified in Iraq. Indeed.
Posted by: Rusty at
04:31 PM
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Yeah I saw that wondered if one of the injured was old abu musab al-zaqueery.
Posted by: Howie at August 25, 2005 04:34 PM (D3+20)
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There seems to be a problem with the trackback, so I'll just let you know I referenced your post in one I called
The Italian Job
Posted by: bRight & Early at August 25, 2005 06:33 PM (ponKd)
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Isnt giving aid and comfort to the enemy a crime?
Posted by: sandpiper at August 25, 2005 09:03 PM (U/q87)
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With "friends" like this do we need enemies? It is good they pulled their people out.
Posted by: Rod Stanton at August 26, 2005 06:58 AM (03F0I)
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I'm of Italian/Sicialian descent and frankly, disgusted. I'm getting really sick of hearing about the Euro-weinies that aide & abet-thank God for the Poles and other former communists who understand...
Posted by: Lynn at August 26, 2005 08:50 AM (rs2f2)
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The only one I think should aid and comfort the enemy is,
like Rusty says, the doctor. And that is only for the medical treatment part. It is their duty. Now I don't think
it would be wrong to have a non medical observer in the
room to accidently bump the doctor while the doctor has a scalpel close to a major artery.
Posted by: Butch at August 26, 2005 09:51 AM (Gqhi9)
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Doctor? What they really need is a good veterinary to treat these animals.
Posted by: Ren at August 26, 2005 02:46 PM (7ZsmI)
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Im italian and today I just feel like a stranger in a strange land.Thank God I have got part of the family in the US.
Never trust those bloody lazy italians.
America does not need this liar "ally" anymore.
God bless America
Posted by: Matt at August 27, 2005 11:00 AM (fy4a2)
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Cindy Sheehan: "My sons killers were freedom fighters."
Holy schneike, I wish I was making this stuff up. Cindy Sheehan, speaking of the men who killed her son in Iraq:
"Freedom Fighters from other countries are going in."
Don't believe me?
Watch the video here.
Because nothing says I'm just grieving for my son's death more than calling the men who killed him freedom fighters.
Hat tip: Patterico
Posted by: Rusty at
03:21 PM
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And that folks is why our commander in chief will not meet with her.
Our President has to put the interests and moral of our troops in the field ahead of this grandstanding mom who has melted down in front of us.
I wish her peace and feel sorry for her loss. However, her son didn’t think of these terrorists as freedom fighters. This woman and the MSM will find out that this country is NOT made up of spoiled, lazy dope smoking “students” in San Francisco.
To paraphrase what someone on this blog said earlier: Freedom of speech is a great tool for the left to hang itself, or something like that.
Posted by: Brad at August 25, 2005 03:31 PM (3OPZt)
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I've said it before, so I'll say it again. She's simply insane.
Posted by: tyler at August 25, 2005 03:40 PM (Y9Lwb)
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She is so hot when she's angry like that... you know, St. Corrie of Pancake-type angry-hot. Hoochie coochie!
Posted by: Wine-aholic at August 25, 2005 03:56 PM (Wsn+K)
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Indeed she is insane. Why bother giving this poor wretch any attention?
Posted by: Jester at August 25, 2005 03:59 PM (2FYdV)
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Prurient interests, that's why.
Posted by: Rusty at August 25, 2005 04:11 PM (JQjhA)
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Why yes George Bush is comander in chief of a bunch of freedon fighters. surely this is what she means as I recall she has said that W killed her son. Nutcase. I thought I was a nutcase but wow plus she is still repeating those 3 talking points. Are those not worn out by now?
Posted by: Howie at August 25, 2005 04:13 PM (wVpT8)
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dictionary.com tells me Rusty needs his eyes checked.
Posted by: Howie at August 25, 2005 04:19 PM (D3+20)
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Heh. Let's just all start calling her Cleopatra, Queen of Denial.....
Posted by: caltechgirl at August 25, 2005 04:21 PM (ZqNBm)
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If the President will just stay the course, the media will get tired of same ole, same ole, in the ditches around Crawford and will move on to something else. The President has been known for his tenacity, so here's hoping he doesn't give in to the PC crowd.
Cindy Sheeham(was that a typo?) would be a study if you could find a competant psychologist. That's kind of like trying to find an honest lawyer, they are scarce as hen's teeth.
Posted by: jesusland joe at August 25, 2005 04:27 PM (DDXXI)
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I'm gonna actually have to agree with you on this. They aren't freedom fighters. No way.
They were freedom fighters in the 1980s.
Too funny.
Posted by: Professor Peter Von Nostrand at August 25, 2005 05:07 PM (BueBw)
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maybe she will do a Howard Dean and have a total mental screaming breakdown right on tv for all the nation to see and watch how fast the left and the MSM drops her....like a lead stone into the sea....buh buh Cindy...hope you like youre padded cell...i hear Greystone might have some room for ya
Posted by: THANOS35 at August 25, 2005 11:33 PM (hcN1S)
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I've said before and I'll say it again:
Cindy Sheehan is the perfect pro-war tool. So pathetic that most "fencesitters", as I think you call people who don't give a shit, should fall over to the fascist imperialist bushian war cult side. (where's Greg and where have all the Babers gone?)
Posted by: A Finn at August 26, 2005 04:10 AM (cWMi4)
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That woman has snakes in her head, but then again, they all do.
Posted by: elliott at August 26, 2005 07:31 AM (XlQVK)
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Can't they get this lady back on her meds????
Posted by: Lynn at August 26, 2005 08:53 AM (rs2f2)
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Wow, what an ignorant thing to say. I sympathize with her losing a son, but basically justifying his killing is pretty sickening and inexcusable for a mother.
Posted by: Venom at August 26, 2005 09:48 AM (dbxVM)
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This woman must have the IQ of sheetrock i mean the ones who kille her son are terrorists not freedom fighters i mean this woman is the definition of ding-bat
Posted by: sandpiper at August 27, 2005 09:50 PM (GOyHB)
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Cindy's windy! She and Ted Kennedy would
make a good twosome!
Posted by: sandi at September 22, 2005 09:51 PM (6mUkl)
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Fights I'd pay to see...
Bambi vs. Godzilla, Auburn vs. USC
Arianna Huffington vs. Victor Davis Hanson.
Posted by: Rusty at
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VDH has far too much honor than to take advantage of an emotionally and intellectually crippled person such as Huffington.
Posted by: Oyster at August 25, 2005 05:15 PM (YudAC)
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Didn't Hufn'Puff's husband run for governor of CA as a Republican?
I am sure that Mr. Hanson will masterfully beyotch-slap her without the audience even being aware.
Posted by: Fersboo at August 25, 2005 06:37 PM (OdjZa)
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BUGS BUNNY and MICKEY MOUSE DAFFY DUCK and DONALD DUCK BART SIMPSON and DENNIS THE MENECE JAFFAR and MERLIN THE WICKED QUEEN and URSULA MAD MADAM MIM and HILLARY CLINTON
Posted by: sandpiper at August 27, 2005 05:19 PM (qMAo+)
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Michael Yon's Latest
Some relevant pragmatic wisdom from Michael Yon's latest dispatch,
Gates of Fire:
Although the situation in Mosul is better, our troops still fight here every day. This may not be the war some folks had in mind a few years ago. But once the shooting starts, a plan is just a guess in a party dress.
UPDATE from Rusty. You MUST read this:
Prosser had beaten the terrorist in the head three times with his fist and was gripping his throat, choking him. But Prosser's gloves were slippery with blood so he couldn't hold on well. At the same time, the terrorist was trying to bite Prosser's wrist, but instead he bit onto the face of Prosser's watch. (Prosser wears his watch with the face turned inward.) The terrorist had a mouthful of watch but he somehow also managed to punch Prosser in the face. When I shot the propane canister, Prosser had nearly strangled the guy, but my shots made Prosser think bad guys were coming, so he released the terrorist's throat and snatched out the pistol from his holster, just as SSG Konkol, Lewis, Devereaux and Muse swarmed the shop. But the shots and the propane fiasco also had brought the terrorist back to life, so Prosser quickly reholstered his pistol and subdued him by smashing his face into the concrete.
And here is an image of the terrorist that Yon snapped.
These are the kinds of images we need to see more of out of Iraq.
Posted by: Demosophist at
02:04 PM
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Hollywood would do well if they took Mr. Yon's intense stories and made a fact based movie out of them. I have found that everytime I start reading him, I cannot stop until I finish the whole thing. I almost feel I am there. Most Excellent Writing!
Posted by: Fersboo at August 25, 2005 03:43 PM (x0fj6)
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Uh, aren't attack tanks supposed to have tracks on them?
8D
(I think the Sarge is going to have a little discussion on the effectiveness of sitting on ones ass vs getting up and doing.)
Posted by: Phillep at August 26, 2005 01:50 AM (zNjIG)
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War Protestors Target Wounded Soldiers
This is how the Left "supports the troops". From
Cybercast News Service:
Washington (CNSNews.com) - The Walter Reed Army Medical Center in Washington, D.C., the current home of hundreds of wounded veterans from the war in Iraq, has been the target of weekly anti-war demonstrations since March. The protesters hold signs that read "Maimed for Lies" and "Enlist here and die for Halliburton."
The anti-war demonstrators, who obtain their protest permits from the Washington, D.C., police department, position themselves directly in front of the main entrance to the Army Medical Center, which is located in northwest D.C., about five miles from the White House.
Among the props used by the protesters are mock caskets, lined up on the sidewalk to represent the death toll in Iraq.
Code Pink Women for Peace, one of the groups backing anti-war activist Cindy Sheehan's vigil outside President Bush's ranch in Crawford Texas, organizes the protests at Walter Reed as well.
Of course, these shameful exhibitions are ignored by the mainstream media, which is reluctant to show the true face of the Left: dishonest, traitorous, and anxious to spit on our servicepeople. The Dread Pundit Bluto sees little difference between these contemptible jackasses and the notorious
Michael Crook.
Thanks to friend and TDPB reader Jan Z, aka, "The Dutchman".
Also posted at The Dread Pundit Bluto.
UPDATE: Chris Short also posted on this yesterday here at The Jawa Report. Yes, we're that far ahead of the curve. Chris also provides us a link to the video here.
Posted by: Bluto at
01:29 PM
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These people are disgusting. No wonder everybody thinks they're traitors and hates their guts.
In the meantime the MSM ignores this, as well as the pro-Bush moms in Crawford. Who do they think they're fooling. This is exactly why the alternative media is needed.
Posted by: Carlos at August 25, 2005 02:06 PM (8e/V4)
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http://www.komotv.com/stories/38738.htm
Off topic, but you have to see this and post it everywhere you can!
Posted by: patd95 at August 25, 2005 02:13 PM (ogWpI)
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Somebody needs to kick the shit out of these losers. It's bad enough that these pricks are down here in Texas blocking roads and causing general mischief on private property, but to target wounded soldiers is beyond the pale.
I'm getting sick and tired of their bullshit. It's one thing to protest, but these people have crossed the line. Something needs to be done. Any ideas?
Posted by: jesusland joe at August 25, 2005 02:46 PM (DDXXI)
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Sean Hannity had a talk with one of the protest organizers today on the radio and she kept calling it a "vigil" (when one thinks of a vigil they think of people standing outside, respectfully quiet and holding candles). Hannity about blew a gaskget and told her to call it what it was, "a protest" and if she didn't have enough sense to be ashamed, someone else was going to have to be ashamed for her. She flat out denied that anything like that went on, but there were plenty of other people who saw it and said she was a liar. They were harrassing peope coming and going too. She even said they were there because the wounded soldiers asked them to be there. Unbelievable.
Posted by: Oyster at August 25, 2005 05:35 PM (YudAC)
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Dirty rotten no good peices of dog escretment they deverve nothing but to have liquified manure sprayed on them
Posted by: sandpiper at August 25, 2005 09:06 PM (U/q87)
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what they need is a good punch in the throat...ALL of them
Posted by: THANOS35 at August 25, 2005 11:42 PM (hcN1S)
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About Lance and EPO
OK, I've been commenting on a lot of blogs about the Lance Armstrong/EPO accusations, and figured it's about time to put my thoughts into a blog post. First of all
Daily Pundit can get you caught up on the all-important minutia of the controversy: whether the EPO test is definitive; what a "B sample" is; what the specific accusations are and who's making them; and what kind of things strike people as suspicious about choices made by
L’Equipe. Go get caught up.
Now it's my turn.
more...
Posted by: Demosophist at
12:35 PM
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The French media have been after him since day one. I donÂ’t trust the chain of custody with these samples from 1999. How does anyone know who had access to them?
These samples could have been tampered with anytime over the last 7 years.
IÂ’ll stick with Lance on this one.
Posted by: Brad at August 25, 2005 01:09 PM (3OPZt)
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I would have bet the French would have supported the Iraq war if they could have defeated Lance

Lance's record establishes a bar that is going to stand for a long long long time.
I am with you, the later years were full of valid sophisticated drug testing methodology and they found nothing. By the time Lance had won 6 times, you know they had him tested everytime he walked by.
Unless someone can prove he tested positive in the last win, it's just a bucnh of smoke.
Posted by: bill at August 25, 2005 01:51 PM (7evkT)
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It comes down to the French jsut want to get them, mostly because their cycling hero of the 90's and 2000's Richard Virenque (who won a record 7 King of the Mountains) will for ever be tained when he confessed under oath to using performance enchancing drugs as a fall out from when his Festina team was kicked out of the Tour in 1998, when a health assistant got busted by customs bring the drugs into the country.
On a side note Armstrong did admit he had been administered EPO during his chemotherapy, but never in racing.
Posted by: the Pirate at August 25, 2005 02:47 PM (SksyN)
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PapaCool shouts slander and hopes Lance wins the eventual lawsuit!
Posted by: PapaCool at August 25, 2005 04:39 PM (/Uv1y)
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the French....hmmmmm...what a bunch of pansy ass, frog leg eating, unshaved, unwashed, stinkin loosers
Posted by: THANOS35 at August 25, 2005 11:45 PM (hcN1S)
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Just have to agree with Thanos35, the
French are just a bunch of Whiney Assed
PeePee Pants who can't stand to see a
non Frenchman win.
Posted by: Nelda J. Foster at August 29, 2005 10:38 PM (6mUkl)
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Gold Star Mothers For Cowardice
Heh. My son went to Iraq to die for the Neocon-Zionist-Halliburton Conspiracy and all I got was this lousy shirt.
Posted by: Rusty at
10:23 AM
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Hippies Lied, Millions Died
Confederate Yankee has an interesting analysis where he comes up with a ratio of the number of people liberated divided by the number of American soldiers killed in various U.S. wars. America's wars, though, are not fought to liberate other peoples--it is just a side-effect that we leave freedom in our wake--our wars are fought to protect our national security. That is the ultimate measure I am interested in.
Posted by: Rusty at
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What you continuously fail to note is that the definition of American national security is up for grabs, and so far as most of America is concerned
your definition is just plain wrong.
All morality aside, your position has made America less safe.
Posted by: Professor Peter Von Nostrand at August 25, 2005 05:11 PM (BueBw)
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hey Professor Von loser...go fuck youreself
Posted by: THANOS35 at August 25, 2005 11:47 PM (hcN1S)
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Hey Professor,
I guess that protecting our national security is code for giving our military secrets to the Chinese communists then? Is that your definition? You must be so smart you can't even park your own hybrid vehicle on campus, huh?
Posted by: Arthur Puty at August 28, 2005 11:00 PM (2Xkem)
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Islamic Leader: Jews Responsible for 9/11
I'm not sure why this is 'news' any more, but it is scary:
Muttahida Majlis-e-Amal [Pakistani Jamat-e-Islami] President Qazi Hussain Ahmed has said he did not believe that Osama Bin Laden was capable of carrying out the sophisticated September 11 attacks on New York and Washington. “The Zionists must be behind the attacks as they were the only beneficiaries of the September 11 incident,” he said in an interview with BBC’s Hardtalk programme.
Posted by: Rusty at
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That bloody copycat! I have been saying that for years! Did you know that the International Jewish Banking Conspiracy planted millions of dollars worth of diamonds on the hijacked flights, just so that the price of diamond would increase and thus fuel further implementation of their Protocols of the Elders of Zion? I bet you didn't, b/c I just made it up. See, it's really easy for idiots to run their mouth in the face of overwhelmingly contradictory evidence...
Judge: Mr. Hutz we've been in here for four hours. Do you have any evidence at all?
Lionel Hutz: Well, Your Honor. We've plenty of hearsay and conjecture. Those are kinds of evidence.
Posted by: Wine-aholic at August 25, 2005 09:44 AM (Wsn+K)
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Off-topic but important: We're
still getting drive errors, though now they're coming from the other drive. We'll be replacing it this weekend; we should only be down for an hour or so unless we completely screw it up.
It's not nearly as bad as before, but you may notice that sometimes a comment won't post or a page doesn't load properly the first time. Just try again and it should come right.
All the backups are completely up to date in case things take a sudden turn for the even worse.
Posted by: Pixy Misa at August 25, 2005 09:47 AM (ymzzr)
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I noticed, and thanks for all your hard work Pixy!!
Wineaholic--it's good to have you back, you Zionist tool!!
Posted by: Rusty at August 25, 2005 09:49 AM (JQjhA)
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And of course, if you look at the news reporting of Able Danger in the foreign press, you see the conspiracy nutbars coming unhinged over the fact that we might have known of Atta and his cohorts before the attack.
A few even make the leap that since we knew of Atta and did nothing, that the US conducted the attacks themselves. Hey, and throw in the Zionists for good measure because it was all about the benjamins. Or a pipeline. Or about urban renewal. Or some other such blather.
If the 9/11 Commission has a lasting legacy, it is that they contributed to the conspiracy theories by purposefully leaving out significant pieces of information.
Posted by: lawhawk at August 25, 2005 10:13 AM (AcoYr)
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That's enough proof for me ;-)
Posted by: Rusty at August 25, 2005 10:34 AM (JQjhA)
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Rusty,
You're too easy. We had you at Zionist conspiracy!
Posted by: lawhawk at August 25, 2005 10:51 AM (AcoYr)
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gee, that's almost as misguided as... saying Saddam was responsible for 9/11.
Just goes to show - the Taliban and their counterparts on the Christian right are two sides of the same coin.
Posted by: Aaron at August 25, 2005 11:02 AM (DEP33)
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Some one ought to tell that goat smellin fly trap Mr. Qazi Hussain Ahmed to shut his damn pie hole. Blamin the Jooos for this is just WRONG BUB O! I know very well who pulled off this 9-11 business. Sure and Begorra, it was us IRISH CATHOLICS who did the big job.
Now that IÂ’ve got that off me chest, let me share one of my favorite stories about the love and comradeship our Arab and Israeli friends have for each other:
Two Arabs boarded a shuttle out of Washington for New York. One sat in the window seat, the other in the middle seat. Just before takeoff a fat, little Israeli guy got on and took the aisle seat next to the Arabs. He kicked off his shoes, wiggled his toes and was settling in when the Arab in the window seat said, "I think I'll go up and get a coke."
"No problem," said the Israeli. "I'll get it for you."
While he was gone, the Arab picked up the Israeli's shoe and spit in it. When the Israeli returned with the coke, the other Arab said, "That looks good. I think I'll have one too."
Again, the Israeli obligingly went to fetch it, and while he is gone the Arab other picked up the other shoe and spit in it. The Israeli returned with the coke, and they all sat back and enjoyed the short flight to New York.
As the plane was landing the Israeli slipped his feet into his shoes and knew immediately what had happened.
"How long must this go on?" he asked. "This enmity between our peoples..... this hatred... this animosity... this spitting in shoes and peeing in cokes?"
Well, enough of this confession, I know itÂ’s good for the soul, but IÂ’ve got potatoes on the stove and those 15 kids are hungry. May the wind always be at your back,
and me ye be in heaven a half hour before the devil knows your dead.
Posted by: Sean McMonigle at August 25, 2005 11:27 AM (3OPZt)
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What are the coordinates for these people? Looks like we need an airstrike!
Posted by: patd95 at August 25, 2005 11:30 AM (ogWpI)
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Lydon Larouche and his Executive Intelligence Review have published claims supporting the theory the pro-Israel/Jew-Neocons in the Pentagon were the TRUE MASTERMINDs of the Sept 11th. (yeah, they even attacked the Petagon, you say? Yes, but who was killed there?) This is not unbeleiavable, when you consider that it's an old tactic straight out of '1984.' Ever heard of the Reichstag Fire??? Simulate an attack on your own country, point at an Enemy. Zionist/Necons and friends have been itching for this Clash of Civilizations for decades!! Now they've created it. WHO ARE THE NO-CONS?? Neo-cons are JEW ZIONIST. Which countries is the US attacking? MUSLIM COUNTRIES HOSTILE TO ISREAL! What are the chances of a Bathist Iraq, or an Iran, attacking the US: NONE. Their missles don't even reach that far!! But they WILL attack ISREAl! So, send in the AMERICANS! WIlliam, Cristol, Paul Wolfowits, Douglass Feith, Richard Pearl, and other prominent Neo-conservatives are JEWS. One behalff of WHO'S INTEREST do they act upon??? Iraq/Arab freedom???? You think they care about the lives of WHITE AMERICANS who die in IraQ defending the security of ISREAL. It's time take a second look at the whole situtation. If the causes of this war still seem nebulous to you, read any speech or interview by Osama Bin Laden and he will repeatedly refer to the Jew/Zionist influuced US Goverment that he is fighting. Yet, even he aknolegdes that most Americans are completely ignorant of this influence.
Posted by: Tsunami at August 25, 2005 08:17 PM (PrqGm)
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he sounds like a member of the DNC is he a memeber of the demacratic undergoround?
Posted by: sandpiper at August 27, 2005 05:22 PM (qMAo+)
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TSUNAMI: Get help now.
Posted by: greyrooster at August 28, 2005 12:11 AM (CBNGy)
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Should we put flowers in their cells too?
Knowing your enemy is one of the most important parts of waging any war. If you don't know anything about the person you are fighting, they can get away with nearly anything because everything they do will be a surprise. Good knowledge of their personalities as well as their tactics can lead to easily won battles and shorten the necessary combat time.
Lack of knowledge can also lead to fatal mistakes when dealing with your enemy. Two New York Times writers are asking the United States to make just such a fatal mistake. Scott Gerwher and Nina Hachigian have said that in Iraqi prisons, maybe we should "try a little tenderness." By this, they are referring to the practice, during the Viet Nam war, of "turning" prisoners by offering them better and more rations, freedoms and other rewards for information and good behavior. At that time, the system was successful in converting some prisoners and obtaining information from others. As I haven't had time to look it up, I don't know exactly how successful it was, though.
But to propose the same treatment for terrorist POWs is not only wrong, but horribly dangerous. We are simply dealing with a completely different class of people here. While some communist fighters (I use some loosely because I'm not currently aware of the exact figures) were hardcore ideologues, others were just soldiers. And still others were conscripts who had no wish to be there fighting at all. Muslim terrorists, however, are by definition, complete zealots. All of them are so committed to their cause that they are ready to blow themselves up or participate in other types of suicidal attacks in order to kill or injure a few Americans. They aren't just fighting against us because their "generals" ordered them to. They are, each and every one, radically committed to our complete annihilation. That's not to say that the entire Muslim world feels this way. Obviously they don't or we wouldn't be in Iraq to begin with.
This isn't an army that we're dealing with. At least not in any conventional sense of the word. It's a loose confederation of extremists who share the same goal. When they are captured, they continue to be as hostile as possible. Attempting to turn them will not only not work, but will put our troops in unnecessarily dangerous situations as these prisoners attempt to use their newfound kindness against our troops.
As the writers continue to explain about this tactic and the history behind it, they provide, unknowingly, one of the prime reasons that it would fail in Iraq.
So what does this have to do with Iraq? While Chieu Hoi was geared to counter a Communist threat, it was based on universal principles of counterinsurgency that could easily be applied to the current struggle. In fact, Chieu Hoi was something of an import in its own right: it was the brainchild of three men with long experience battling rebels.
We are not fighting a counterinsurgency. The men we are fighting are not rebels. Not in the traditional sense of the word. To label this as an insurgency would indicate that the terrorists we are fighting have some sort of legitimate claim on the Iraqi government or at least some claim to even be in Iraq. But that is not the case. The majority of the terrorists we are fighting are coming from other countries. Their reasons for fighting have nothing to do with insurgency or rebellion.
They designed Chieu Hoi to focus on changing the underlying attitudes of the subjects, not simply on trying to control their behavior. Empirical research in social psychology reveals that efforts to directly control behavior through coercion or bribery usually leave underlying attitudes intact, or even harden them. Thus putting a gun to a man's head and instructing him to support a particular political ideology will work only as long as the gun is present and he is being watched. The preferred method for long-term change is instilling sincere belief in the new political ideology, making the gun and monitoring unnecessary.
Once again, there are numerous problems with the statements above. First and foremost, we are not fighting a political ideology. We are fighting a religious ideology. Regardless what you would like to think, fighting with the terrorists is strictly a religious war. They believe that their religion demands our complete destruction and they are not going to stop at anything short of that.
Which brings us back around to my original point. You can't "deprogram" these people. Religious fanaticism is one of the strongest psychological forces known. Why else would hundreds of people drink poisoned kool-aid?
In addition, running our prisons under the Chieu Hoi model could help reverse the terrible propaganda defeat suffered with the revelations of torture at Abu Ghraib. Nongovernmental groups like the International Red Cross and Amnesty International would praise America, bringing more international support.
I don't buy that for a second. International "aid" groups are not going to praise us no matter what we do. And the whole point in being in Iraq isn't get get a pat on the head from Amnesty International. If that's our motivation, then we need some serious self-evaluation.
The whole idea of "deprogramming" the Iraqi prisoners is, to me, laughable enough that I don't know why a major paper is even taking it seriously enough to run it. But considering the Times hasn't even bothered to run a correction for Krugman's lies of the past two weeks, I guess I shouldn't be surprised. I'm just thankful that they aren't the ones making policy decisions.
Posted by: Drew at
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We can also thank God that the Bush administration presumably doesn't consult the NY Times for policy advice.
Posted by: Joshua at August 25, 2005 09:22 AM (XPnN/)
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The left worships at the alter of government, but I wonder where the moonbats like these writers go for spiritual guidance, probably the AP.
Posted by: bill at August 25, 2005 09:36 AM (7evkT)
3
Drew, you make some good points. But this approach is already being taken at Gitmo. And all it has yielded is a few prisoners acting more cooperatively while they're there. As soon as they're released though, most go right back to the same old jihadi behavior and start screaming about their mistreatment.
These people, Scott and Nina, are maybe under the assumption that techniques in raising children will work for jihadis? It doesn't even always work on children.
Posted by: Oyster at August 25, 2005 09:44 AM (fl6E1)
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Heh. I can't recall one time that talking reasonably and offering rewards worked on my 14 year old.
Posted by: Drew at August 25, 2005 09:50 AM (Ml8z/)
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Michael Yon talks about some baddies who were let out of Abu Ghraib. LTC Kurilla was shot trying to apprehend them in a training exercise.
At least one of the terrorists was eunechized.
Posted by: Marcus Aurelius at August 25, 2005 06:16 PM (6IMFK)
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Damn whinny bunch of liberals in the left-wing news media especialy the New York Pravda? what do they want for them a cell that would put the WALDORF ASTORIA to shame?
Posted by: sandpiper at August 27, 2005 05:25 PM (qMAo+)
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Report: Bin Laden Injured by Spanish Troops
Islmic websites have began circulating a rumor that Osama bin Laden was injured. Yesterday afternoon The Jawa Report began to get bombarded with Google traffic looking for 'bin Laden rumor'. I could not locate any relevant information, though, until this morning. If true, which cannot be confirmed at this time, then we know Osama bin Laden's location and that he is still actively engaged in the fight to return the Taliban to power.
ADNKI:
Osama bin Laden has been wounded in Afghanistan, according to two different reports carried by various Islamic websites. Referring to the al-Qaeda leader as Abu Abdullah, the second message, which appeared on Wednesday, said: "Mullah Ahmadi, military leader of the Badr brigades, which form part of the al-Qaeda organisation in Afghanistan, has confirmed that Sheikh Abu Abdullah has been injured in his left leg."
It follows a previous message on several Islamic websites saying the fugitive terrorist leader was injured while taking part in an attack on a Spanish military base in Afghanistan.
The second message relaying the news is titled "Confirmation of the injury of Sheikh Abu Abdullah in the Al-Khulud expedition" and adds other details, specifying that the injury was to the left leg and claiming it was sustained "when the Sheikh went out onto the battlefield to lead the expedition during which the Spanish base was attacked and which was named the Al-Khulud expedition."
"The source has promised to broadcast soon a video of the expedition, which lasted four hours," the message continues, before concluding: "Therefore we ask Allah to heal the Sheikh and make him well again. Don't be miserly in praying for him."
Is it just me, or does it seem odd that Osama bin Laden is actually
participating in attacks on NATO forces? If the report has any basis in reality, isn't it much more likely that bin Laden was hit in his camp than that he was injured while leading an assault on Spanish troops?
UPDATE: Mac Powell also notices the story and is equally skeptical of claim bin Laden leading attack. And as Mike Pechar says, these things have turned out to be wrong in the past.
UPDATE II: Speculation: 10Snooker, in the comments, makes the keep observation that this could be the set up for an announcement that bin Laden is dead. It's just a lot sexier to say he died of battle wounds than from kydney failure, I guess.
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Sounds a little specious to say that OBL is still fighting, could be a set up for dead -- brave martyr bites the dust scam.
Posted by: bill at August 25, 2005 09:32 AM (7evkT)
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I agree. I just can't picture OBL leading from the front.
Posted by: REMF at August 25, 2005 09:35 AM (xuZWQ)
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Bin Laden can't even walk without a cane and he's leading an attack? Really. And look how many times Zarqawi died.
Posted by: Oyster at August 25, 2005 09:49 AM (fl6E1)
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Sounds bogus to me. But considering their fighting reputation (or lack thereof) in Iraq, Spanish troops would be the ones for AQ to attack.
Posted by: Don Miguel at August 25, 2005 12:34 PM (+KixN)
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I'm no medical expert but the "wounding in the left leg" bit could be a heads up about him losing a leg to diabetes caused by kidney failure...Can only hope!
Posted by: MKL at August 26, 2005 01:50 AM (iJp62)
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August 24, 2005
Veterans Beat Down by Thugs in Seattle
I'm sure the left is proud of three suspects in Seattle who groped two women and then proceeded to beat the bejesus out of two soldiers who had just returned from Iraq.
Pictures of the suspects can be seen here:
Police Need Your Help In Capturing Beating Suspects
Hat Tip: Ace of Spades HQ and Michelle Malkin
Cross Posted from Conservative Thinking
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So, do you mean to suggest that these suspects are leftists, or are you just dull enough to think that leftists hate anyone in the military and therefore would approve of this sort of violence. Either way, this is a sad post. Could you possibly exploit this ugly situation in a more perverse manner?
By the way, I usually have quite a few veterans of the Iraq war in my classes and judging by their private conversations with me I'm pretty confident that most of them would think you're an asshole for this.
Posted by: Professor Peter Von Nostrand at August 25, 2005 02:32 AM (BueBw)
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I came to this blog accidentally (from sayanythingblog), and was about to hit the back button when I found the post RE Seattle.
Wow.
You sure do know how toss the hyperbole around.
Congratulations on your novel ability to make non sequitur associations. I hope that works out for you.
Jason
Posted by: Jason at August 25, 2005 02:43 AM (lBkiX)
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I came to this blog accidentally (from sayanythingblog), and was about to hit the back button when I found the post RE Seattle.
Wow.
You sure do know how toss the hyperbole around.
Congratulations on your novel ability to make non sequitur associations. I hope that works out for you.
Jason
Posted by: Jason at August 25, 2005 02:43 AM (lBkiX)
4
I came to this blog accidentally (from sayanythingblog), and was about to hit the back button when I found the post RE Seattle.
Wow.
You sure do know how toss the hyperbole around.
Congratulations on your novel ability to make non sequitur associations. I hope that works out for you.
Jason
Posted by: Jason at August 25, 2005 02:44 AM (lBkiX)
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Too funny!
I have a feeling that this is
exactly what most members of the general public would say if they stumbled upon this hate filled site.
You rule Jason. Way to speak up.
Posted by: Professor Peter Von Nostrand at August 25, 2005 02:47 AM (BueBw)
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Hush, professor, if you say it out loud, they'll stop being hilariously hateful towards everything for up to a week...
Posted by: A Finn at August 25, 2005 04:07 AM (cWMi4)
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Dear Allah: Please allow friends of these brave soldiers to find the cowards who did this, and let justice be done.
By justice I mean, given a severe ass beating.
Posted by: Filthy Allah at August 25, 2005 05:28 AM (bikuR)
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Can they be veterans if the war is still going on?
Posted by: A Finn at August 25, 2005 06:09 AM (cWMi4)
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I wouldn't suggest the left is happy about it either.
Posted by: Oyster at August 25, 2005 06:44 AM (YudAC)
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The reasoning power of the rabid right, in action again!
We now return you to your regularly scheduled histrionics.
Posted by: McCoy at August 25, 2005 07:13 AM (WcWV3)
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Peter: Of course they'd think that, you being their teacher.
Jason: You rule. Way to speak up, not once, but THREE times!
Posted by: Young Bourbon Professional at August 25, 2005 07:15 AM (x+5JB)
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P.S. I'm with Filthy. Let's hope these goons (I don't mean Peter and Jason) are identified and and get to trade in their nice baggy clothing for something of the striped variety.
Posted by: Young Bourbon Professional at August 25, 2005 07:18 AM (x+5JB)
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Professor,
Michelle Malkin knew damn well what she was doing when she posted this story. She reports the news, and her underlings put 2 and 2 together and get 6: of course liberals are happy about this cus we hate the troops.
Posted by: Brian at August 25, 2005 07:37 AM (MoKIP)
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LOL!!! Stupid GI not so strong without his gun is he?
Long live the brave revolutionary heroes who crushed the US imperialist mercenaries in their own "home"!
LOLOLOLOL!!!
Posted by: Banner Of Songun at August 25, 2005 07:45 AM (7cAn3)
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These guys were just crinables.
Posted by: Howie at August 25, 2005 08:44 AM (D3+20)
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I hope they not only catch the no good thugs but they should cut off their arms right at the shoulders there is no call for this they deserve servere punishment
Posted by: sandpiper at August 25, 2005 09:09 AM (QtdTZ)
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Banner of Songun says enough for me. The fact of the matter is that, to this point I haven't seen a leftists even the slightest bit upset about this situation and they certainly won't blog about it.
If they supported troops they would blog about things like this and numerous other things that are ethically wrong.
Another interesting point is that these thugs were probably told by the victims that the victims were in the Army. I know that is something I would say to hopefully stop potential disaster because the other side of that coin is something no military member wants to get into.
If the two soldiers annihilated anyone that attacked them they would be in prison right now if not in civilian prisons then in custody at the nearest fort. Why? Conduct unbecoming. It sucks but it's the truth. Either way the soldiers were screwed that night. Sure, a decent military lawyer could have gotten everything squared away but that night would not have been pleasant for the soldiers, especially in Seattle.
But, go ahead and assail my thoughts with your comments and keep using your weapons of mass distraction. I gladly defend your right to do so.
Posted by: Chris Short at August 25, 2005 09:53 AM (0OCQY)
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Brian, your insinuation of Malkin's motives is no different than Chris's remark. You criticize someone by doing the same thing? You're mother must be proud.
Posted by: Oyster at August 25, 2005 09:55 AM (fl6E1)
Posted by: Oyster at August 25, 2005 09:55 AM (fl6E1)
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"Police Need Your Help In Capturing Beating Suspects..."
Hey, that's Snipped Dog and Poof Daddy!
/They all look alike to me.
Posted by: Princess Kimberley at August 25, 2005 11:08 AM (KncNC)
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Dear Mr. Professional;
Because my heart is pure, my posts must be as the posts of three men.
Or err...
I can come back to the site the next day and find a triple post. Not sure what happened, but I'm *sure* it endears the people around here to my viewpoint...
sigh.
Jason
Posted by: Jason at August 25, 2005 12:06 PM (lBkiX)
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Dear Mr. Professional;
Because my heart is pure, my posts must be as the posts of three men.
Or err...
I can come back to the site the next day and find a triple post. Not sure what happened, but I'm *sure* it endears the people around here to my viewpoint...
sigh.
Jason
Posted by: Jason at August 25, 2005 12:06 PM (lBkiX)
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Cindy Sheehan states that she holds no 'animosity' toward the person that killed her son. One could safely presume that she also holds no animosity toward the killers of other mother's sons and daughters in the military as well. Obviously, judging by all the vigils and such, many on the far left support Cindy Sheehan and her views vociferously.
So why is it so far fetched to assume that a significant segment of the left would not approve of the beatings of these soldiers? If they think it's forgiveable that a terrorist kill Sheehan's son and the sons and daughters of others, then why is a relatively innocuous non-fatal brutal beating of a couple of soldiers any less forgivable?
Reading Kos and other leftist sites, their disdain for members of the military is just barely contained and the hatred boiling just beneath the surface is palpable. And only then because it is so politically incorrect right now to not 'support the troops'. But it won't be long until the far left abandons the pretense of supporting the troops and will behave true to their beliefs just like they did during the Vietnam war and start calling troops baby-killers, spitting on them, etc.
The only reason the far left (not all on the left feel this way certainly) is not spitting on members of the military now is only because they don't want to risk alienating the more centrist segements of the left and right - yet. But that is not going to last much longer. Once the glow around Sheehan fades and she is no longer of any use and the spotlight fades, they will - out of frustration - escalate their offensive. And they have nowhere else to go but to direct action against the military-industrial establishment in all it's incarnations. Including the troops.
Posted by: Dean at August 25, 2005 12:59 PM (Fla9L)
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Well at least Jason only repeated himself once this time.
Dean, you pose a very good argument.
Posted by: Oyster at August 25, 2005 01:06 PM (fl6E1)
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I understand the outrage at this incident, but assigning them special status because of their service to country is wrong. It is this kind of thinking that gives us hate crime and hate speech codes. We can not allow special victim tiers to exist in a free and equal society.
The crime itself is the outragous act, their status as veterans is a seperate issue. I would put money on the fact that the thugs had no idea they were veterans.
Posted by: Defense Guy at August 25, 2005 01:12 PM (jPCiN)
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It two soldiers had come home and beat up some filthy hippies you can bet the Lefties would be blogging it.
Posted by: Carlos at August 25, 2005 02:24 PM (8e/V4)
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Oyster,
why would you rather his mother. What's wrong with yours.
(or is that your's)
Posted by: Carlos at August 25, 2005 02:27 PM (8e/V4)
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Oyster -- That is my 'top of the head' view of this thing. I wish it were different, but I was an impressionable high school freshman during the Vietnam war and was persuaded by a local peace organization that the president was evil incarnate, and that American soldiers were murderous, blood-thirsty thugs that were slaughtering innocent babies daily. What they said jived with what I saw on the news and read in the paper. It also flew in the face of what my parents believed. And being in the rebellious years of my development, that cemented my feelings. The peace group told me how through protest they would stop the war. So I hopped on the bus one day to go to Berkeley to protest with them.
Upon arrival the peaceful protest I'd been promised was nowhere to be seen, rather the radical instigated riot in which I'd been brought to participate was in full ugy swing. I watched and listened in frightend silence as 'protesters' threw rocks and bottles at police, and called them and the American government and military every obscene name in the book. I was stunned, frightened, and incredulous at what these protestors were doing. What they were doing was not protest or exercise of free speech in my mind. They certainly did not speak for me. I then got back on the bus - in more ways than one.
After college I joined the military and became a fighter pilot. Fortunately, I never had to fight in any war beyond the cold war. During those times, I observed the far left in its opposition to Reagan and their tarring him as the most evil man in the world, and that he would most certainly start a war with the USSR resulting in global thermonuclear destruction of the world. Having spent a great deal of time right at ground zero in Europe flying NATO support missions, I was well aware of the actual threats posed by the USSR and the ignorance of the left on matters of nuclear matters. What I saw was the far left's hatred of the US being vented again toward the government and military.
During the height of that period, I personally felt the hate from the far left when at a wedding party where I was wearing my dress uniform someone asked what I did. I explained and was then pounced upon as a 'tool' of Reagan's plan to dominate the world, and 'how could I?' be a part of such thing if I were a decent human being that did not want to see the world destroyed, and the Russians loved their children too...
The pure hatred (and fear) that spewed from those four people was clear and unequivocable. Once they begin to escalate (I think they had a little alcohol fueling their taste for a fight) one of them threatened to get physical. Though honestly part of me wanted to rip the guy's head off, the other 99% of me told him that if the need arose I would put my life on the line without hesitation for him and his friends - as well as everyone else in America. I then thanked him for revalidating what I knew to be a strength of American government: Tolerating the intolerable. Whereas, I told him, if he were in the USSR and said the things to a Soviet officer about the USSR that he'd said to me, he and friends - and possibly members of his family - would be on their way to a Gulag where they would probably die of other than natural causes.
So, as my wife (who is Iraqi) says, my perspective on the far left is reality based.
Posted by: Dean at August 25, 2005 04:05 PM (Fla9L)
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Chris---you're a complete idiot. Thanks
Posted by: Matt at August 25, 2005 08:53 PM (OyRcV)
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Too bad they were not carrying their weapons there would be four thugs pushing up daisies by now
Posted by: sandpiper at August 25, 2005 09:10 PM (U/q87)
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Violence by a protected class on white males is no big deal in Seattle. TodayÂ’s Seattle Times had a one row, two-inch column on page 3 about this story.
Now if a fruitcake and his SIG other were given broken jaws in Pioneer Square you would have thought the goddamn Japanese attacked the US again.
Posted by: Brad at August 25, 2005 10:51 PM (6mUkl)
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banner of songun is a fucking pussy
Posted by: fuck you at August 25, 2005 11:42 PM (4Ngox)
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Perfect example of how niggers are taking over this country.
Posted by: concerned at August 26, 2005 05:34 PM (tYkZM)
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concerned: Yikes. Blame the evil mentality, not the race.
Posted by: Young Bourbon Professional at August 27, 2005 01:55 PM (UE/g/)
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Since their blacks and if their cuaght will jessie jackasson step in and urge we understand them or what? we should drop them right into the middle of iraq armed with nothing at all and see how brave they are here hoping some insurgents beat the snot out of them
Posted by: sandpiper at August 27, 2005 05:29 PM (qMAo+)
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Another attack on whites by blacks. And some assholes continue to talk about the KKK. This happens on a daily basis in every American city.
Of course saying so makes me a racist.
If you sissies would get behind the KKK and other groups who defend white people we would not be having these problems. Wouldn't have any problems with muslims either.
But no, just sit and be victims in the name of racial equality. Racial equality my ass.
I think someone is going to strike back in rememberence of this act against white people.
Posted by: greyrooster at August 28, 2005 12:06 AM (CBNGy)
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Von Nostril: You sound as if you wish to diddle Jason. You piece of shit.
Posted by: greyrooster at August 28, 2005 12:07 AM (CBNGy)
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this is the violence that happens everyday in every state and town. yes it is a shame that they are solders, but how do you know they didnt prevoke the attack by some rude comment or gesture... or vise versa...
regardsless of who you are; white,black,solder or thug , nobody deserves to be beaten the way they were.
i feel sorry for them all personally.
Posted by: Miss V. at August 29, 2005 01:44 PM (OdGd6)
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I have to say that as a person who has been in the Army AND in Jail,my experience is that these urban homeboy coon motherf'ckers have no respect for anyone and make there living by stepping on honest peoples toes.
Puerto Ricans are no better where I'm from. They should all go back to where there families came from.
Posted by: T at October 03, 2005 07:18 PM (6krEN)
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UN to UK: "Terrorists Are People, Too"
A United Nations official has said that Great Britain will be cited for "human rights violations" if the UK goes ahead with plans to deport renegade clerics and terrorist sympathizers. From the
Guardian (UK):
A senior UN representative last night threatened to cite the British government for violation of human rights over its planned deportations of alleged terrorist sympathisers.
Manfred Novak, the UN human rights commission's special investigator on torture, told the Guardian he is seeking permission through the Foreign Office to visit Britain to discuss the issue with the home secretary, Charles Clarke.
In a statement on Tuesday night, Prof Novak said that the government's intention to return radical preachers to their countries of origin, even though some of those countries have a track record of human rights abuses, "reflects a tendency in Europe to circumvent the international obligation not to deport anybody if there is a serious risk that he or she might be subjected to torture".
Pardon me while I go barf.
The Dread Pundit Bluto thinks it's time and past time for the US Justice Department to prosecute the UN under the RICO (Racketeering Influenced and Corrupt Organizations) Act.
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I agree with Bluto! I guess what's stopping them is the how harsh/awfull we'd look to the world and how many more operations we'd have to take over without the financial support and tax breaks they get.
Posted by: michele at August 24, 2005 10:41 PM (ht2RK)
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The most, and I do mean MOST, annoying thing is that most of the fuckers are claiming benefits (social security) and are living in accomodation paid for by us, the UK taxpayer!
Posted by: Tilesey at August 25, 2005 02:48 AM (eyEGU)
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Hmm... you have social security benefits? I thought "welfare state" was a word of curse for Brits. Well anyway, solution to all your problems:
assosiate: teams of England losing in football
to: unemployed Muslims (how? make Elisabeth say it and write it on every brewery product)
outcome: football fan-atics will rip them all to shreds after the next UEFA-cup or world championships.
Posted by: A Finn at August 25, 2005 04:21 AM (cWMi4)
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Huh?!?! Terrorists are people? When did this happen? Talk about defining humanity down...
Posted by: David at August 25, 2005 06:19 AM (ACL5/)
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I still say that if what they're doing is bad enough to deport them (and it is) then it's bad enough to lock them up. If there are those who are worried about the cost of feeding them and clothing them in prison, all I'd say is it's cheaper than what they're costing us now and they're no less a danger elsewhere. They're likely to get even more support in the countries they're from, not torture.
Posted by: Oyster at August 25, 2005 07:03 AM (YudAC)
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How I wish the UN were not in the States. If they were on some Island somewhere then the UK can send these terrorist types to UNistan.
Posted by: Marcus Aurelius at August 25, 2005 07:38 AM (zIVyC)
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I say the whole damn UN should just get lost and we should move the whole UN pig sty out of america and tear down that eye sore
Posted by: sandpiper at August 25, 2005 09:11 AM (QtdTZ)
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If I were a Britain(well, some of my ancestors were British), I would get a few of my friends together and meet Mr. Novak at Heathrow,and then proceed to give him a piece of my mind.
Maybe a rotten egg of two would also be appropriate. Send him back to wherever the bastard came from. Unless its New York. We don't want the bastard here either.
Posted by: jesusland joe at August 25, 2005 10:29 AM (DDXXI)
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Fight the Islamic Propaganda First and all will be well.
The teachers of this so called islam shit are using FEAR and HATE propaganda to turn muslim youth into suicide bombers.
all they do is * "First You tell ppl that they will get killed or get to do time in hell, then u show them some stupid way by which they can escape.Like herding cows. One will lead and the rest follow.
Posted by: monzter at August 25, 2005 11:14 AM (rA3Xj)
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Blair should tell the UN to F off.
Posted by: Pat A at August 25, 2005 03:18 PM (YyWmH)
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Time for the UN to take a walk a long far walk far away from it all and way out in the middle of nowhere
Posted by: sandpiper at August 27, 2005 09:55 PM (GOyHB)
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"Little Democracy" Seizes the Day
The current Kos strategy of "divide for the hell of it" reflects the view of a segment of the Democratic Party who believe that the politics of unreason will serve them well. (The link is to Iowahawk's cut and paste of the Kos post, because who in their right mind would give another link to Kos if they didn't have to? Much better to give the link to Iowahawk.)
In November of 2003 I posted a lengthy piece refuting a similar claim made on Daily Kos that had the adult-children in the Dean Campaign breathless. I'll reproduce that article below, with a few edits. The bottom line is that it's not enough to feel secure that the strategy, repeatedly promoted by the "petulant wing of the Democrat Party," wouldn't win elections, or even a nomination (a fact that I accurately predicted back in 2003). The point is that win or lose the strategy is simply bad for the country. Which is to say, in no uncertain terms, that it's pretty much boneheadedly anti-American, or even anti-democracy, for that matter, since it's probably not good for any country. With good reason Christopher Hitchens calls these folks "domestic masochists."
Read "Centrifugal Politics"!
Posted by: Demosophist at
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"change backgrounds buttons" have been broken for a couple days....
Please give me back MY lite background.
Posted by: j. blair at August 24, 2005 07:22 PM (FrnwP)
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Welcome Back Rusty. Without you, I have been spending too much time with My Scott Baio action figures.
I wonder how Wasim is doing sucking infidel dick for a living now that he lost his cushy post at the immigration firm.
Posted by: Filthy Allah at August 24, 2005 09:14 PM (bikuR)
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This was a particularly good part:
"...when what actually happened is that the electorate was simply returning to the ideological consensus it has held since the Founding."
It was a matter of recognizing that we were beginning to drift from the original "intent" of our forefathers. An original intent that came from the sound judgement of people whose memories of abuse were quite fresh. Something many of us have no direct experience of. I wish I could have come up with that myself because that is what I've been trying to say to many for a while now.
The Democratic Party wishes to break from that and repeat the mistakes that others have already made.
And maybe I'm being overly simplistic, but doesn't centrifugal politics embody a "throw money at the problem" (even if there's not a problem) solution? You know, give the illusion that there's a problem that some will buy in to? (Actually, it's more like putting lipstick on a pig.)
Posted by: Oyster at August 24, 2005 09:43 PM (YudAC)
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Australia Warns Muslims to Accept Western Values or Get Out
Cajones: Tony Blair and John Howard have them, George W. Bush does not.
Josh sends along this The Age article (subscription):
EDUCATION Minister Brendan Nelson has bluntly told Islamists who do not want to accept and teach Australian values that they should "clear off".
And John Howard has warned that mosques, prayer halls and Muslim schools will be watched "to the extent necessary" to ensure they do not give comfort to terrorism.
A day after the Prime Minister's summit with Muslim leaders, the Government stepped up its push to get "Australian values" — epitomised, it says, by the Anzac story of Simpson and his donkey — taught comprehensively to Muslim children.
On Tuesday Treasurer Peter Costello said people thinking of coming to Australia who did not like Australian values and preferred a society that practised sharia law should go elsewhere...
We want them to understand our history and our culture, the extent to which we believe in mateship and giving another person a hand up and a fair go. And basically, if people don't want to be Australians and they don't want to live by Australian values and understand them, well basically they can clear off."
When are our elected leaders going to be brave enough to say the same?
Posted by: Rusty at
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When will our leaders say that kind of thing?
I see two ways that it happens - one involves a President Rudy; the other involves me booking a ski trip to hell.
Posted by: KG at August 24, 2005 05:11 PM (s8D3V)
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It's a step in the right direction. Mosques and Islamic schools have no place in the Western world, letting them be built is in itself a crime against humanity.
Posted by: Jester at August 24, 2005 05:17 PM (2FYdV)
3
As I noted to Rusty in my tip, it will be very,
very interesting to see whether any Islamofascists, in Australia or elsewhere, will pick up the gauntlet that the Aussies have thrown down.
Posted by: Joshua at August 24, 2005 05:54 PM (XPnN/)
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Finally someone said it!!!!
Posted by: Tom at August 24, 2005 06:49 PM (ntMFM)
Posted by: Howie at August 24, 2005 07:18 PM (D3+20)
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It's a wonder the man can walk; he must have huevos like coconuts.
Posted by: Improbulus Maximus at August 24, 2005 07:50 PM (0yYS2)
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Hey Tom: I said it a year ago. I know, I know, I don't count.
Muslims don't belong in the Western World. They and their religion should stay in their countries. They offer the west nothing but trouble. Islam should be banned in America. This country wasn't founded by muslims. When the founding fathers wrote about freedom of religion they were not referring to Islam. The practitioners of this gutter religion should not be allowed in America.
Young Bourbon Professional: Perhaps this doesn't belong here but there was an interesting program on television last night concerning abortion. The medical experts say that a fetus has a human conscious at 28 weeks. The fetus also feels pain at 28 weeks. So much for those who would murder a child during the third trimester.
Posted by: greyrooster at August 24, 2005 08:40 PM (CBNGy)
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Bastards.
Does this mean all Muslims have to become Christians and bleach their skin? Is that what "embracing Australian values" means?
All these white people are so racist its disgusting. White people can be terrorists to (KKK, Aryan Nation, Bush)
Posted by: Sheila at August 24, 2005 09:10 PM (hKK+H)
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Sheila, shut the fuck up you stupid dhimmi whore. Go suck a camel's dick. I hope the next terrorist attack gets you.
Posted by: Improbulus Maximus at August 24, 2005 09:18 PM (0yYS2)
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I know it sounds crazy, but I have proof Satan is on the side of the Jihadi's. Please check out my site. http://www.cmunkeypunky.com/ There are real images, and I promise all I did to them was draw the circles and the arrow.
Posted by: Kstumpf at August 24, 2005 10:23 PM (6fL6K)
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You've got some winning commenters here.
Posted by: michele at August 24, 2005 10:44 PM (ht2RK)
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Dear Sheila
What you are truly missing is the fact that Australians have a sense of patriotism which you and your friends evidently have not.
A muslim can be of any sex, race or color. They can move freely in society and meet for religious services unimpugned. They can say what they want in their mosque, even if it is (since skin color matters to you so much) "Kill Whitey!"
They can do this and no one would care, but what you are blind to is the fact that Muslims have a duty to make any woman named Sheila (by no means a Muslim Name)either join Islam, Pay an Infidel Tax or die.
Are you ready to join Islam Sheila? If not, are you willing to die? don't think for a moment that your bleeding heart will save you in the end. The Jihadists couldn't give a sh!t about you and to tell you the truth, neither do we.
You are blind from staring @ the sun too long. Come back to earth and you might actually see what is really going on in this world.
Love -n- smooches
Mychimo
Bastards.
(bitch)
Does this mean all Muslims have to become Christians and bleach their skin? Is that what "embracing Australian values" means?
(why do the Christians offend you so?)
All these white people are so racist its disgusting. White people can be terrorists to (KKK, Aryan Nation, Bush)
(you are the racist. in two sentences you mentioned skin color in relation to Islam, where as you won't find that analogy anywhere around this site. You, darling, cannot understand what we stand for here so you cry RACIST! It's not race, love, Its Ideology.)
Love,
Mychimo
Posted by: mychimo at August 25, 2005 12:05 AM (Bxnmv)
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What's a person who hates some or all religions? Religionist doesn't sound right, and Atheist isn't 100% correct, so I figured there might be a word for it I've never heard of...
Posted by: A Finn at August 25, 2005 04:02 AM (cWMi4)
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And by "western values", don't you mean "christian values"? (if: "No, I don't", name one western
(meaning: at least 40% of it is in Europe or Middle-/North-/South-American continent) or English-speaking-fragment-of-British-Empire country that can say it isn't basing it's values on the book or Jeesus in any way.
(Albania, dangit...well it's CCCP and still pretty communist, so it doesn't count))
Posted by: A Finn at August 25, 2005 06:27 AM (cWMi4)
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"When are our elected leaders going to be brave enough to say the same?"
I can actually give you the date:
The Twelfth of Never.
Posted by: David at August 25, 2005 06:32 AM (ACL5/)
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Ah, anotjher response to "Sheila"—not racism, dweeb: defense of one's culture against savages and barbarians isn't racism.
Two applicable quotes:
"Liberalism is a philosophy of consolation for Western Civilization as it commits suicide"—James Burnham
"It is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and hang them. Build your funeral pyre and beside it my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your national custom - then we shall follow ours."–Sir Charles Napier, while governor of an "independant" Indian province, speaking of the Indian practice of suttee.
Not all cultures are equal. Islam embodies and embues its adjerents with a culture that celebrates brutalizing women, savaging , lying to, and brutally mudering unbelievers.
While people who want to embrace those sorts of values certainly have the right to do so, I have the right to say, "Sod off, camel buggers!"
And to actively defend myself from such savages any damned way I seem necessary. Including encouraging the ball-less doofs who inhabit toe political class to enforce the borders, expell the savages and wreak havoc upon their heads when they attempt to (or even actively plan) to bring their barbarian savagry to my back yard.
Now, get this through your SLS (Self-induced Liberalist Scotomata): none of that is in any way, shape, fashion or form racist. I don't care one single, solitary bit WHAT race an Islamist is. If they intend to import their "values" into my neck of the woods, then they'd better understqand the principle Sir Charles Napier stated: I'll enforce MY values right down their throats. terminally, if necessary.
In self-defense.
Posted by: David at August 25, 2005 06:44 AM (ACL5/)
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Greyrooster. Thanks for the info. I suspect that pain is felt much earlier than that, too.
Rusty: Great post. I may start buying Foster's to celebrate.
Posted by: Young Bourbon Professional at August 25, 2005 07:25 AM (x+5JB)
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I think this is a far tougher issue for a country that still holds its religous freedoms as absolute. I don't know about Australia, but my understanding about Europe is that religion is not seen as important.
My opinion only, of course.
Posted by: Defense Guy at August 25, 2005 01:18 PM (jPCiN)
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All Western countries should adopt Australia's mantra. Britain is half way there. We'll never get there because of our political correctness, the ACLU, and some Federal judges.
Posted by: Pat A at August 25, 2005 03:27 PM (YyWmH)
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It's true I am in no way a racist. The only thing I hate is Islam. If you love it Sheila, go and get yourself an oppressive Islamic husband who you can share with one or 2 other women.
Posted by: Jester at August 25, 2005 03:58 PM (2FYdV)
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In saying adopt to "western values" they say that Muslims must give up their own rich history in favor to become more white. Is that not what western means? White? The west is majority white, if you have forgotten. I live there. So really I am not "unpatriotic." I have no allegiance to Australia, but to my own country.
I admit I cried racist, my mistake. Sorry...but some of you need to realize that I have a lot of difficulties living in the midwest. Because of the vast ignorance of many, my dark skin is always confused for black (I am indian). I have encountered racism and hatred. Maybe you haven't maybe you have. I know that there is a lot of hostility towards whites nowadays, just as much as to any other race.
If my comments offended you, sorry. But the prime ministers words offend me just as much.
Posted by: Sheila at August 25, 2005 09:50 PM (hKK+H)
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Sabeer al khayr, Sheila
As a German I often went to Holland. Dutch people hate germans. I did not get served in Restaurants, a lady in a ticket booth heard me talking and put a sign 'closed' just in front of me, my car tyres have been slicedm, asking for directions I ended up in some very curious parts of Amsterdam, water for an overheating car has been denied to me, and on and on and on.
I live in the US now for 12 years and I never ever heard a bad word nor a curious comment. I find that remarkable and I have a good part of my friends who are jewish.
I also worked for some time in the south of the US (building and testing fiber optic rings) and had no real clue aobut the relationsship between blacks and whites over
there. For me they were just people. You hear some grumbling over there (from whites and from blacks) but the dealings with each other as far as I could see were not racist but pretty fair.
Races have their differences. Acknowledging them doesn't mean to put down another race. It simply means there are differences. Individuals have different talents some are enforced by your culture others are not.
People are entitled to their prejudices, that's how they see the world. (you do too, one cannot without, that's nonsense)((you may have the prejudice that everybody is equal which is not true, people have the same value and the same rights but that doesn't mean they are equal in the sense of indivduality). Every race believes they are superior to others (mostly based on the valuesystem of their culture). That is just so.
To call white americans racist is easy but to my experience that is not true.
I have/had friends in Holland and I told them sometimes about things which I experienced. They were emberassed. As I liked my friends I didn't tell them anymore. If you apply some takt it pays back. If you run around with a club written racist on it what do you think what kind of response you get?
If a muslim believes I am poor devil and he is way superior what do you think what kind of reactions he gets? If you read in the Koran how Muslim should deal with non-muslim what do you think will be the reaction to it?
To classify the reaction and trying to stop it is futile. It is better to work on the reasons for this reaction.
Most people try simply to get along with everybody else. They have their little judgements and prejudices and whatever. That's just fine. But to believe in a cult which calls for murder that is not fine anymore that's no joke.
What you think privately is nobodies business but how we get along as people is everybodies business and to call for murder demands a strong reaction. Those people need to be ostrazised and kicked out of the community. They are poison.
A muslim has no good reason to come to the US. The constitution and Islam is simply not compatible. Islam is against the constitution, against the very fundamentals of life in the US. For what reason does a muslim come to the US and still wants to be a muslim?
I don't know whether you are Hindu or not but in the Mahabarata, in the Bagavad Gita (The evening before the great battle) Arjuna has doubts about the war, he does not want to fight his relatives who ursurped the throne. Krishna gave him the arrow and told him to fight.
Let's fight the people who want to ursurp the throne and do the evil which in their souls.
Posted by: Werner at August 26, 2005 12:05 AM (s+oWa)
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Look out aussies the liberals and the ACLU will be on your tails faster then you can say gaday
Posted by: sandpiper at August 27, 2005 05:32 PM (qMAo+)
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Sheila: Jealous of those white people aren't you. Too bad you can't be one of the beautiful people. What did your people contribute to civilization? "Indian and confused for black"? You are full of shit. Grow up. Indians are such crybabies it's disgusting. How's that sound the other way around? You're a racist. And without the courage to admit it. At least I do.
Werner: Good article. "if you run around with a club with racist written on it, what response do you get"
YOU WOULD BE SURPRISED. 90% will admire you and pat you on the back when others aren't looking. Why when others aren't looking? Because 10% of the fishermen catch 90% of the fish and 10% of the men have 90% of the balls.
JESTER: Say what? The many wives thing is the only good thing about Islam. I think my hard working wife needs some help around the house. Particularly if they are well built long legged blondes aged 25 to 35. Just thinking of the old lady.
DAVID: Right on. Calling racist is nothing more than an excuse for ones own failure.
A FINN: When you use the word HATE. The word is assholeist.
Posted by: greyrooster at August 27, 2005 11:44 PM (CBNGy)
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ok. time for all of you to take a break. i'll be ruling the world in 10 days and i make the laws there will no religion no humanity. Just me and the wild life.
Posted by: Caesar at September 10, 2005 01:07 PM (lVdP3)
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ok. time for all of you to take a break. i'll be ruling the world in 10 days and i make the laws there will no religion no mankind. Just me and the wild life.
Posted by: Caesar at September 10, 2005 01:08 PM (lVdP3)
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You are all horrible. im 16 and cant belive adults are talking like this about people in our society!!! whats your big problem everyone belives in something diffrent! if we were all the same wouldn't we be boring? one of my best friends is muslim and she belongs in this country just as much as you or i!!!!
Posted by: Jessica at September 13, 2005 03:11 AM (UoOtu)
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Hey, shut the fuck up Jessica, you don't know about muslims they are all the same (Cruel). I've had experiences, you are just 16 so go to your room and do your homework.
Posted by: Caesar at September 13, 2005 08:50 PM (/2yj5)
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A word about terrorists ..
These UNSTABLE FUNDAMENTALIST EXTREMEISTS twist the words of their texts to suit themselves! Most Muslim people donÂ’t condone terrorism and believe that murder for any reason, religious or otherwise, is unacceptable.
The sad fact is, people these days think that these extremeists are actually SPOKESPEOPLE for their religion! Let me tell you, they are not! They are sad fuck-ups who manipulate a particular faith and use it to carry out their own sadistic desires!
What really upsets me the most is that, in the end, it doesnÂ’t matter about the words/beliefs/actions of the majority of the civilised, humane Muslim community; in the end itÂ’s the extremist insanity cases which we pay attention to. I think itÂ’s so wrong that so many Muslim people go through all this discrimination when they didnÂ’t do shit in the first place.
Now there's my nice part .. oh yes .. and I almost forgot ..
Most of you are fucking racist cunts. Except for a few, you're all fucking ignorant, believing what the media and idiots like G.W.Bush
Jessica, Sheila, I support you guys.
Caesar you obviously don't know shit about shit. Why don't you just go wank off in your room, no one cares.
Greyrooster, when ur so-called 'founding fathers' talked about freedom of religion they were talking about FUCKING FREEDOM OF RELIGION, PERIOD, none ov ur ifs and unlesses and reservations bs.
And no Jester, letting Muslims build Mosques is not a crime against humanity you shit-for-brains assfucker. Oppressing someone because of their race/religion etc is a crime against humanity - MAYBE THAT'S WHY THE UNIVERSAL DECLARATION OF HUMAN RIGHTS CONDEMNS IT? You should check out that document for yourself/. Oh yes, haha, i forgot, you're an illiterate whoreson.
Mychimo - Oh yes, woohoo for patriotism. I'm all for the good things in Oz like our mateship etc., but all patriotism is the last resort of the scoundrel.
You wankers can post some 'reply' shit after i do this, but i wont care, because this site is even more degenerate than the morals of half of you, and that's saying something.
Posted by: x3 at September 18, 2005 06:04 AM (+HmT4)
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X3: How dare you to speak to a ruler like that, I'll throw you to the lions....
are you a muslim? do you like muslims?
anyway let me tell you something
1)never ever use swears against me.
2)If you like muslims or want to support them, go suck their dick and die in Iraq.
3)Muslims are a greatest mistake god had ever made among mankind.
I think the ideas of hitler should be used in America, every Muslim should be put in camps and should be shot to death.
Go Die with Muslims you bitches (sheila, Jessica)
as for X3 i'm not sure if you are a male or a female, i'll just have to consider you as homosexual and you don't fit to live in the western world.
Posted by: Caesar at September 18, 2005 08:58 PM (BjVgA)
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WTW Combat Rock
Sheriff donÂ’t like it. Rock Utah Rock Utah.
Or
You can still rock in America... Well maybe notÂ…..
Little sisterÂ’s got a record machine.
She's all excited cause she's sweet sixteen.
She going out she's gonna bop tonight.
Gonna shake it make it last all night.
Utah Sheriff's rifle is ready to roll.
Grabs some tear gas as he heads for the show.
He's gonna knockheads, knockheads, knockheads!!!!!
or
Rock & Roll Over on your stomach and place your arms out cross your legs.
Well come on now. If you got to go to places like that well the cops are going to show sooner or later. DonÂ’t stop, just expect it. If you want to rock some days you are going to get rolled. ItÂ’s just part of it. I remember when Kiss was going to be the end of civilization. Now theyÂ’re all respectable and stuff. Even that lizard Paul McCartney is respectable these days. Nightranger caused teenage pregnancy, thank god. Everyone kept a chick album or two.
Speaking of teenage pregnancy. The Timken Trojans don't use em.
Here are your bloggers
Wunderkraut missed us and wants a link. Here you go.
As you can tell from the musical refrences here I'm a bit beyond my party years. However a good friend of mine had a rock & roll dive bar band. I went quite a bit. Yep there was always a fight or cops or whatever.
Updated: OMG no Clash link Horridly rude of me.
Posted by: Howie at
02:19 PM
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Yay!
Now I can sleep tonight.
My work here is done.
Posted by: WunderKraut at August 24, 2005 02:31 PM (+kCPe)
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Actually I ran into old Pubichead (he has fuzzy hair) at a funeral a while back. He is in a band called The Leftovers. There may be more than one band named that. they will be playing here. First weekend in OCT.
http://home.midwest.net/~cbconly/enfield.htm
or was here nut not now.
http://www.enfieldmuledays.com/
Posted by: Howie at August 24, 2005 03:22 PM (D3+20)
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Here from Michelle Nalkin.
She still loves ya Doc.
Posted by: Rod Stanton at August 24, 2005 03:33 PM (03F0I)
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Malkin Old fart cant type
Posted by: Rod Stanton at August 24, 2005 03:34 PM (03F0I)
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I got moonbatted from Slate. Of all the posts to pick, they have to pick a WTW one
Posted by: William Teach at August 24, 2005 06:14 PM (Pzlrt)
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Palestinian Kidnappers Free French Journalist
(Gaza City) Here's a followup to previous reports (
here and
here) regarding the kidnapping of French television journalist Muhammed Ouathi.
From the Khaleej Times:
A French television journalist abducted by Palestinian gunmen in Gaza a week ago was freed unharmed on Monday, witnesses said.
The kidnapping of Mohammad Ouathi, a soundman for France 3 television, was the longest in a series of abductions of foreign journalists and aid workers in Gaza. No group claimed responsibility. Ouathi is a Frenchman of Algerian origin.
His release was announced by the Popular Resistance Committees (PRC), an umbrella group of Palestinian militants that said it helped mediate an end to the abduction.
No details concerning Ouathi's release were disclosed.
My guess would be that a ransom was paid.
Interestingly, the PRC, which is dominated by Fatah gunmen, claimed it helped free Ouathi. It's believed by others that the PRC was directly responsible for the kidnapping.
Posted by: Mike Pechar at
01:58 PM
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Post should read muslims release muslim.
Posted by: greyrooster at August 24, 2005 08:44 PM (CBNGy)
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At least he's free now.
Posted by: Howie at August 24, 2005 09:04 PM (D3+20)
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Did they free the frenchman becuase they got tired of the clucking?
Posted by: sandpiper at August 26, 2005 09:37 AM (poF4d)
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Mu.nu back in business!!!
Somehow I feel responsible for the mu.nu site going down. Nah, forget it. I blame Bushitlermchimpyhaliburton! Because of the hypocricy!
Posted by: Rusty at
01:34 PM
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I
posted this morning wondering if you had FINALLY gotten that Fatwa you have been craving for so long. I guess not...sorry.
Posted by: WunderKraut at August 24, 2005 01:46 PM (+kCPe)
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Was either Haliburton or Trickey Dick.
Posted by: Rod Stanton at August 24, 2005 02:50 PM (03F0I)
Posted by: M at August 24, 2005 04:28 PM (Vg0tt)
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I figured it was the Llamas and all that orgling that sent the servers to Kaflooeyland.
Posted by: TC-LeatherPenguin at August 24, 2005 06:20 PM (kiH79)
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Roll Over Gutenberg
This post, by Jeff Jarvis, describes the parameters of the "Information Reformation" that's taking place:
The war is over and the army that wasn't even fighting - the army of all of us, the ones who weren't in charge, the ones without the arms - won. The big guys who owned the big guns still don't know it. But they lost.
In our media 2.0, web 2.0, post-media, post-scarcity, small-is-the-new-big, open-source, gift-economy world of the empowered and connected individual, the value is no longer in maintaining an exclusive hold on things. The value is no longer in owning content or distribution.
The value is in relationships. The value is in trust.
And this post, by Donald Sensing, lays out the case for a wartime Civilian Intelligence System, although he doesn't actually use that term:
Yet a scandal can race around the world while good news and success stories are still tying their shoes. The Bush administration has allowed the information status quo of the war to be maintained too long in the public eye. The information agenda has been set by the mainstream media (MSM), attenuated to a significant but not large degree by bloggers. I think the administration should begin immediately a vigorous domestic-information program to do these things:
-remind the American people "why we fight."
-inform the public of successes achieved.
-educate the public of the national objectives being sought, and how.
I have no grand plan on exactly how such a program should be carried out, but its success would depend on sidestepping the mainstream media. None of this information has been unavailable in the public arena. The MSM could have been reporting such stories objectively all along but have deliberately avoided doing so.
What I've had trouble understanding is why, if Jeff is right, we need to await a government lead-out in order to establish this new Civilian Intelligence System? (h/t: Winds of Change)
Read the rest!
Posted by: Demosophist at
01:23 PM
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Come on, this post is a bit retarded -- what does Jeff Jarvis have to do with Steve Gutenberg?
Posted by: Leopold Stotch at August 24, 2005 04:14 PM (fgGJ1)
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Stotch:
In 1979 Steve Gutenberg played the title role of Billy Fisher in the TV Series
Billy. The character was a mortician who had Walter Mitty-like visions. The show was cancelled after three episodes, but apparently Jeff (being a fan of classical American literature, and especially James Thurber) thought it the best thing to come out of the '70s TV era. So the title refers to his often-expressed desire to see the show reprised, or "rolled over." You can help, by writing a letter to your local CBS affiliate.
Posted by: Demosophist at August 24, 2005 08:06 PM (npKIi)
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Consider that letter in the mail. I thought the post was some lame bid to have Gutenberg accepted into the Ancient Society of No Homers.
Posted by: Leopold Stotch at August 24, 2005 10:01 PM (fgGJ1)
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You know they have a whole museum in Germany devoted to Steve Gutenberg. My wife visited it a few years ago, and she said it was interesting, but the gift shop blows; not one single Police Academy T-shirt.
Posted by: Improbulus Maximus at August 24, 2005 10:02 PM (0yYS2)
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August 23, 2005
Pat Robertson is Right, Let's Kill Hugo Chavez
When I heard that
Pat Robertson said that maybe we might want to assassinate Hugo Chavez, my first reaction was,
Wow, did he say that out loud? You see, I think Pat Robertson is right, we really ought to assassinate Hugo Chavez. He said what a lot of us think all the time.
What makes Robertsons statememt foolish is not that it's a bad idea, but that Pat Robertson is a public figure. Since I don't really qualify as a public figure, I'll go ahead and second Robertsons motion. Hugo Chavez must die. While we're at it, I hope the CIA saves a bullet for Fidel Castro. No, I don't think the CIA will actually kill the pair, but that doesn't mean it's a bad idea.
Why is political assassination such a bad idea? Only those who view the world from an international law paradigm could make such a case. Political assassinations, it is argued, destabilize the international legal system. Besides, they say, if you begin to justify the political assassination of that two-bit dictator, what is to stop our enemies from justifying assassinating our President?
Good point. But
a) There is no such thing as an international legal system. International law is a fiction slightly less believable than the notion that Sasqatch communicates with a woman in a double-wide trailor on the edges of Boggy Creek, LA. Where there is no force there is no law. When the U.N. can begin to enforce its will, come back and then we'll talk. Just because you wish there was such a thing as international law does not make it so.
b) If you believe all nations are essentially equal, then you and I have a major disagreement. What is good for the goose is not good for the gander. What is the difference, for instance, between the U.S. having a nuclear warhead and Iran? If you cannot see the difference between the U.S. and Iran than you are an idiot. Just because many in the world are blind to these differences, does not make the differences any less real.
This may sound simplistic, but we are the good guys and they are the bad guys. I want the good guys to prevail.
All nations are not equal and neither are their leaders. If you wish to put your faith in an international system which equivocates between the King of Denmark and the King of Saudi Arabia, be my guest. I don't buy it.
c) I am an American. Ultimately, what is good for America's national interest is the highest moral metric that I am interested in. This may not be a popular position to hold these days, but it is one that I believe in wholeheartedly. This does not mean that I wish national interest to trump moral concerns whenever the two are at odds, but some times what is in our interests must trump what is good. If you wish our leaders to always do the moral thing rather than the right thing, I suggest electing a slate of Buddhist monks to Congress.
Fortunately, I believe that what is usually in America's national interests is also what is usually moral. The spread of democracy, captalism, and liberalism are both moral and in our national interest.
I certainly don't wish to set aside America's national interests for the sake of some false sense of morality which rests upon the baseless equivocation the U.N. makes between nations and their leaders. If the U.S. could have taken out Saddam Hussein with a single bullet, breaking international law in the process, I would lose no sleep.
In the shootout at the O.K. Corral, which is the international stage, I, for one, root for Wyatt Earp to win. I really could care less that the Clantons and McLaurys were deputized: they were the bad guys. When the law begins to equivocate between the good and the bad, then that law has no legitimacy in my eyes.
So, if any policy makers are reading this post, and I doubt if they are, then do us all a favor and take out a few of our enemies. Only, if you do it right, make sure that it looks like another one of our enemies did it. If there's anything The Godfather taught me about life, it is that it is always a good thing to make one enemy look bad while taking out another one.
Oh, but keep your traps shut. Thinking, planning, and executing the political assassinations of America's enemies is not necessarily bad. Talking about it, though, is.
UPDATE: Jeff from The Shape of Days agrees. Check out his post in which he recounts the crimes of Hugo Chavez. Even though Jeff makes the claim to fame that he was first since he wrote his post eight ago, I'm going to have to remind you that my server was down. I thought this post up nine hours ago. I swear. No I can't prove it.......
UPDATE II: Brian B. makes an excellent point here.
Posted by: Rusty at
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I'm sure they've got the "keeping your traps shut" part worked out already.
And you can never be quite sure who's reading, unless you're paying close attention. Someone in the DOJ drops in and reads my blog from time to time, I've learned from the server logs. Someone in the NSA dropped by once. I also have regular readers all over the armed forces, including in the Pentagon.
You just never know, when you put your words out on the net, who's going to run across them.
Posted by: IO ERROR at August 23, 2005 07:25 PM (HaVXj)
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Good. Follow my recommendations and then find some sort of plausible deniability.
Posted by: Rusty at August 23, 2005 07:37 PM (JQjhA)
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This may sound simplistic, but we are the good guys and they are the bad guys. I want the good guys to prevail.
This instantly shuts the moral equivocators up. Their jaw drops and they don't even know what to say. They actually think everybody believes we should treat America and Iran the same and that we should be "consistent". Morons.
Yes you assholes, America and Israel can have nukes-- Iran can't. End of discussion.
Posted by: Carlos at August 23, 2005 08:22 PM (8e/V4)
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Good to see you are back up and running.
Posted by: Jay at August 24, 2005 01:27 PM (2FcUc)
5
Some people just need killin.
Posted by: Howie at August 24, 2005 01:29 PM (sknEY)
6
Carlos, sometimes you just make me feel redundant.
Posted by: Improbulus Maximus at August 24, 2005 01:30 PM (0yYS2)
Posted by: Improbulus Maximus at August 24, 2005 01:40 PM (0yYS2)
8
While I have no problem with seeing Hugo leave office in a pine box, I'm not convinced it's somehting the government could do without severe domestic repercussions, given the current political climate.
Having said that, I wish the people, including my fellow conservative bloggers, who are screaming about "Religious Intolerance" just because this came out of Robertson's mouth would just shut up. Robertson wears two hats, one as a religious figure and one as a political pundit. You'd do well to pay attention to which one's on his head when he's talking.
Furthermore, there's a world of difference between espousing the view that the assassination of a brutal dictator is in the strategic best interest of the United States, and calling for Jihad against all unbelievers. Hyperventillating about "Fatwahs" just make you sound like a n overreacting schoolgirl.
Posted by: Brian B at August 24, 2005 02:12 PM (CouWh)
9
Rusty, for some reason, with regard to Pat Robertson, I can't help but remember your recent comment that the right has its crazies under control.
Regarding the substance of your post:
a) There
is such a thing as international law, it just only applies when the U.S. desides it should, which means it is more show than substance. Exactly the recipe for draining American moral authority (soft power) around the world. International law
could exist in a real way if the leading superpower in world history got behind it by supporting the UN (similarly to the way the states legitimized a central power by supporting the Constitution - the prominent states were crucial in gaining legitimacy), joining the International Criminal Court, and lending objective support to the Declaration of Human rights and other established international codes.
This is the project we should be involved in.
b) You're suggesting that the U.S. be allowed to employ any means, including the use of nuclear weapons and assassination, to enforce its will. This is precisely the sort of arrogance that has spawned radical Islamic terrorism. And, it is precisely the course of action that Osama bin Laden would love for us to (continue to) take.
c) The problem is, your do not leave any room for the idea that your definition of the American national interest
might be profoundly wrong. I would
think that the history of how radical Islam rose in the first place would suggest that military options do far more short term and long term harm than good. It also suggests that you think that American institutions
always justify an anything goes approach (since it makes us the good guys), which is extremely dangerous.
You are simplifying the way the world works to the extreme and your Saddam assassination suggestion is really quite telling; the result of such an act would have resulted in either a) another strong man similar to Saddam taking power, or b) a civil war, not unlike what we see right now happening in Iraq (capturing Saddam has not lessened this in the least).
Your Godfather reference is far more appropriate. As long as we can all see very clearly that your aspirations for American foreign policy amount to little more than thuggery, then we can dispense with all the rhetoric about bringing freedom and democracy to the rest of the world.
Posted by: Professor Peter Von Nostrand at August 24, 2005 02:22 PM (BueBw)
10
Oh, come now. Without leaders like Chavez, Castro, Jong Il, and the Ayatollah, life would be very boring for neocons.
Posted by: Venom at August 24, 2005 02:24 PM (dbxVM)
11
lol...and now Robertson's apologizing for his remark.
Posted by: Venom at August 24, 2005 03:00 PM (dbxVM)
12
Is it a crime to threaten a foreign nation? For example, if someone went to the Chinese embassy website and threatened a Chinese interest would that be a crime under American law?
Posted by: Hedgy at August 24, 2005 03:20 PM (A8rF5)
13
Peter,
Sorry, but I'm a realist at heart. I'm not sure you know the history of radical Islam, which has been around since, er, Muhammed's day. We did nothing to cause it, it has always been there.
Posted by: Rusty at August 24, 2005 03:59 PM (JQjhA)
14
I'm afraid I'm with Feisty Republican Whore on this one. (See the post that got her fatwa'd.) Even if we were to bump off Chavez, that would probably just hand the reins of power over to one of his lackeys, and who's to say he won't turn out just as bad, or worse, than Hugo himself?
No, we really would need a full-scale invasion to get rid of him and the mess he's made of Venezuela. Trouble is, of course, the U.S. military is just a tad preoccupied at the moment. Bigger fish to fry, don'tcha know.
Posted by: Joshua at August 24, 2005 04:32 PM (XPnN/)
15
duh.
we can't
do assassinations. the Clinton adminstration passed a law against it.
Posted by: matoko kusanagi at August 24, 2005 06:56 PM (DsETa)
16
Rusty, "I did not call for the assassination of that man."
Posted by: IO ERROR at August 24, 2005 08:06 PM (HaVXj)
17
Robertson has been around for a long time. If you note the first sentence of his statement. He did it on purpose. He has a history of making, well wild statements. He knew exactly what he was doing he needed/wanted attention for Pat just as much as he wanted attention for the Chavez issue. He won on all fronts no better publicity than bad.
Posted by: Howie at August 24, 2005 08:50 PM (D3+20)
18
They can shout death to America. They can kill Americans. They can scream death to our President. (By they, I mean Chavez and his friends, Castro, Irans leaders and such). But when one over zealous American says the same its a big deal. Liberal crybaby assholes. If you're on the other side move there.
Posted by: greyrooster at August 24, 2005 08:53 PM (CBNGy)
19
Rusty, I don't think you're a realist at heart. I think you're a neocon at heart, which is really something quite different, unless you want to make the argument that neoconservatism is a radical form of realism.
Hugo Chavez is the democratically elected president of Venezuela, so it is pretty strange (not to mention counter to much of your rhetoric on this site) that you'd agree with Robertson on this. Or do you join him in apologizing today? Also, I do not see how eliminating Chavez would serve U.S. national interests. Could you explain that to me? If you do take this up, I think it will become clear that the "U.S. national interest" you favor actually benefits a small minority of American citizens and corporations (i.e. very few of the readers of The Jawa Report).
Regarding radical Islam: You are correct to note that it has been around since the early days of the religion, but this is a minor point (The U.S. government might as well base its entire approach towards Mormonism on the fact that there are still radical Mormons marrying 13 year olds by the dozen in Utah and northern Arizona).
You should know that I was referring to the rise of radical Islam as a political force significant enough to support 9/11 style terrorist attacks and garner sympathy from those otherwise moderate Muslims upset with U.S. policy. If you don't see the U.S./European role in prodding the development of that sort of radical Islamic terrorism I really don't know what to tell you other than that you should read Mark LeVine's excellent new book
Why They Don't Hate Us.
Posted by: Professor Peter Von Nostrand at August 24, 2005 09:00 PM (BueBw)
20
IM: you're indispensable.
Posted by: Howie at August 24, 2005 09:03 PM (D3+20)
21
Oh one other thought. If Robertson really approved of this policy and thought it was possible he just made it about as improbable as it can possibly get.
Posted by: Howie at August 24, 2005 09:17 PM (D3+20)
22
Sigh.... I miss my trolls....
Posted by: Howie at August 24, 2005 09:23 PM (D3+20)
23
Professor Von Nostrand:
Is international law positive or natural?
If positive, what is the legislative body?
If natural, what ethical theory does it derive?
Posted by: John "Akatsukami" Braue at August 24, 2005 09:51 PM (SNKfY)
24
Hugo Chavez is the democratically elected president of Venezuela,..."
hahahaha. Sure he is. Jimmah said so.
Posted by: Oyster at August 24, 2005 10:06 PM (YudAC)
25
I don't necessarily disagree with points A and B... but I do think that there is a sense of "if the U.S. does it, it is okay."
If we do it and are caught doing it...it gives other nations carte blanche.
So, we can't give the U.S. the power to assassinate with impunity if we don't also trust, oh, say, Iran with the same power.
Unfortunately, the US has to play by the same (or at least similar) rules as which it would like others to play.
Finally, maybe you trust the current administration with this power... but how do you know you'll trust future administrations with this power.
No, we'll just have to do it the old fashioned way. Have operatives pose as locals and foment a coup. ;-)
Posted by: ArmyArtilleryWife at August 25, 2005 09:39 AM (14kpv)
26
I don't necessarily disagree with points A and B... but I do think that there is a sense of "if the U.S. does it, it is okay."
If we do it and are caught doing it...it gives other nations carte blanche.
The problem with this logic is that it assumes that other countries never have, are not, and never will attempt to use assassination, and that it's only some code of ethics that stands in their way. The only problem is, we KNOW that other countries have and are and will try it.
So, we can't give the U.S. the power to assassinate with impunity if we don't also trust, oh, say, Iran with the same power.
Depends on who you mean by "we". If you mean "We, the People", my response is, why not? It's not like Iran is waiting for our permission anyway.
Unfortunately, the US has to play by the same (or at least similar) rules as which it would like others to play.
No, the US is expected to play by a set of rules much much stricter than that by which everyone else DOES play. And while the rest of the world commits the most egregious of offenses, even the most minor of infractions by Americans is greeted with howls of indignation. Let's face it -- nothing we do, no matter how far we bend over, no matter how much we could grovel and prostrate ourselves, would make a dent in the demonization of the US. So I am left wondering why we keep worrying about international opinion when it's obvious that it's prejudiced to begin with. We're the Great satan? Fine. Just don't be surprised when we actually start wielding that pitchfork.
Finally, maybe you trust the current administration with this power... but how do you know you'll trust future administrations with this power.
I don't trust ANY administration with ANY power unless there's some sort of checks and balances. But let's not throw out the baby with the bathwater.
Posted by: Brian B at August 25, 2005 10:58 AM (CouWh)
27
Professor Von Nostrand, I really must question your grip on history as well as reality.
1. There is no international law. Period. Law without an enforcement mechanism is merely a suggestion. The UN has shown repeatedly that it cannot and will not enforce anything. See, e.g. Saddam Hussein's Iraq. What the UN does do is allow murderous and undemocratic regimes (Iran, Syria, China, etc.) a forum to bash us accusing us of violating "international law" as they define it, setting up a moral equivalency between us and them, which is unacceptable in theory as well as practice. The US "throwing its weight" behind international law has no effect if the real violators of it continue to define it and prevent its enforcement against themselves.
2. Radical Islam, in its present strains, dates from at least the 19th century, with the founding of the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt, well before the US or even Western Europe was involved in any meaningful way in the Middle East. If you want someone to "blame" for that aside from the supremecist elements within Islam itself, take it up with the Ottoman Turks.
3. Hugo Chavez was indeed elected democratically -- for the first election. The recall election last August, however, was rife with fraud noted by nearly every single independent international observer (including the OAS) except for Jimmy Carter. The fraud was perpetrated by the election officials picked by Chavistas who counted the votes and may have just reversed the percentages. If you think Hugo Chavez was democratically elected last August, you must also think that Saddam Hussein was democratically elected, not to mention the thug in charge of Iran right now.
Posted by: ProCynic at August 25, 2005 11:45 AM (bfkgE)
28
Uh... news flash... "our enemies" are "justifying assassinating our President" and "justifying" targeting women and children.
Posted by: DANEgerus at August 25, 2005 12:35 PM (J8yxJ)
29
Pat helped point out what the Washington Post and all other media ignores: Hugo must go. He is a thief and a liar, hum sounds like the devil.
Posted by: John Morrison at August 25, 2005 02:25 PM (ZETBb)
30
To equate Hugo Chavez to Saddam, or to any of the other tyrants we've supported around the world is just assinine. Chavez is a democraticly elected leader who enjoys widespread support among the populous of Venezuela (59% according to last year's recall vote endorsed by the Carter Center and the OAS as fair). Chavez may be less than perfect, but to see Rusty call for his assassination only demonstrates the degree to which any ethical standards he ever had have been flushed down the toilet.
And to hear what I can only assume to be a bunch of Bush Republicans suggest that Chavez' victory in the recall election were tainted is beyond hypocritical. When you want to deal with Florida 2000, or Ohio 2004 then I'll listen to your complaints. Otherwise, you have no moral standing at all.
Posted by: Professor Peter Von Nostrand at August 25, 2005 08:33 PM (BueBw)
31
If we allow the murders of political leaders all over the world it would bite us in the behind. The markets of the world would become so unstable that it would wreck our economy.
Posted by: social rob at August 25, 2005 10:23 PM (tXv5y)
32
Oh, Professor, your comments sound like those of a "useful idiot" in the failed Marxist-Leninist tradition, of which the last bastions are Castro's Cuba, Chavista Venezuela and, not surprisingly given your opinion, American university campuses. But I'll play
If you actually think that last year's recall "election" was fair, perhaps you should visit Daniel's blog (http://daniel-venezuela.blogspot.com/) can tell you how much of a sham last year's election was, how Jimmy Carter sold out the people of Venezuela just to hurt the US in the true Carter anti-American tradition. Msybe he can give you an idea of the hell Chavez has created, the dictatorial power he has assumed, the aid he has given to murderous narco-rebels in Colombia, the mullahs in Iran and, yes, al Qaida; and the threat he represents to the US. That is, the people here who read this blog who don't want to be killed or made to suffer just so you can maintain your sense of moral superiority. Maybe, if you're willing to listen. But your kool-aid comments suggest you are not.
Now, I could say that on a practical level, you are correct in that the Venezuelan recall "election" last year was comparable to Ohio and Florida, the chief difference being that the attempts of the leftists to cheat in Venezuela to "elect" Chavez were successful, while the leftists' attempts to cheat in Ohio and Florida to get the traitorous John Kerry elected failed.
And I could go one step further and suggest that if you want election fraud in the US, you have far better places to look than Florida and Ohio. May I suggest Washington state's gubernatorial race? How 'bout the presidential race in Milwaukee? How 'bout other races in East St. Louis and East Chicago?
But I'll just settle for stating the obvious that anyone who insists that Hugo Chavez runs an election more fair and honest than the US surrenders all moral and intellectual legitimacy.
I'd tell you to book your trip to Jonestown, but you're already there. Your academic institution and your students have my sympathies, but we've come to expect that from our universities today. Please say "Hi!" to Ward Churchill for me.
Posted by: ProCynic at August 25, 2005 10:32 PM (6krEN)
33
Why stop with hugo chevez lets include fidel castro in that list as well
Posted by: sandpiper at August 27, 2005 05:37 PM (qMAo+)
34
Pat Robertson apologizing for a remark against an enemy of America and the moonbat liberals think it a big deal.
Clinton apology for getting blow jobs in the White House and lying to the American public on television is small deal?
Von Nostril, Vemon how one sided and stupid can you get? You two are beginning to remind me of the Sheehan bitch.
Posted by: greyrooster at August 27, 2005 11:04 PM (CBNGy)
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